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Guest

UEFA Champions League

Big Rumour going round that the champions league draw was leaked. This was posted on the Liverpool Echo this morning this morning before the draw.

http://forums.liverpoolecho.co.uk...s=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Liam

A load of bollocks imo.  Someone happened to successfully predict the draw, and as bookies weren't taking bets on it came to this conclusion.  People have successfully predicted draws in tournaments before and they will do again.  It doesn't mean they're rigged.
Guest

Yep just me being a sensationalist  
Dave

It is a remarkable coincidence, though -

Some time before the draw, predictions of the ties emerge. Bookies, it is alleged, stop taking bets (not, it appears, that many of them were taking them in the first place)

When the draw is made, the predictions (the 'leak') prove to be100% correct down to which side has home advantage in the first tie.

Given the array of half-baked conspiracy theories which have only a passing acquaintance with coincidence, it's no wonder that people smell a rodent of some description, rightly or wrongly...
zeds

i posted thie above link in the Roma thread earlier. Call me naive but I think there's definitely something in this. It's not just the fact that the guy incidently provides the correct predictions, but it's compounded by him being so confident with his 'predictions' that he alleges that the draw has been leaked a good couple of hours before it's supposedly taken place live.
Guest

I have no doubts that it's rigged.  I mean, how many people are going to watch a final between Shalke and Fenerbache?
VB

I didn’t know that the guy had posted which teams would be playing the home leg first etc! I thought he had just posted the pairings, but to actually then go onto correctly post which team plays the home leg first! Hmmm.  

They’ll have to be a little more careful next year…
Dave

Giancarlo wrote:
I have no doubts that it's rigged.  I mean, how many people are going to watch a final between Shalke and Fenerbache?


True - but in that case you'd rig the draw so that the pair met in the quarter finals to completely destroy that possibility...
Guest

If it has been rigged, I can't see for the life of me quite what they were trying to achieve with the draw...
VB

Surely Abramovich could have worked it out in little better for his boys… So far, so good: Olympiacos in the second round, Fenerbahce in the quarters. He should have ensured a meeting with Schalke /Roma in the semis (no disrespect to Roma), But then, that could be too obvious, especially given the recent word-of-mouth leakage.

In all honesty though, I don’t think it’s been ‘rigged’, it just seems extremely suspicious.
Dave

I suppose the following possibilities arise:

1. Remove 1 English team before semis
2. Give Barca a (theoretically) easy passage into the semi
3. Have a good TV game - Roma seeking revenge for last year.
4. Good result for UEFA whoever wins (3)
5. Give Chelsea a (theoretically) easy passage into the semis
6. If (5) comes off, remove one more English team, but...
7. Have guaranteed English presence (good for TV figures) in the final.

You could also add the thrills and spills of a Barca vs Man Utd semi (no offence intended, Roma fans - if I were a Man Utd fan I'd be a little worried by the tie).

Without being rude, I can't help wondering whether the cry of 'rigging it's a disgrace ' would have rung so loud from Merseyside had Liverpool drawn Schalke or if the bloke complaining had been allowed to place his bet at William Hill. In all of this, no-one seems to be noting that the complainant, rather than going to the press with his scoop about the rigging instead went to his local betting shop to try and pull one over on the bookies and only moaned when told that he couldn't do so...

Perhaps I'm just getting cynical...
Guest

The draw is rigged from the start anyway.

"Oh wait, you can't be in the same group as them because there are already two English teams playing their first game on a Wednesday night".

"Every team must be seeded. We cannot have a group with Barca, Milan and ManYoo, it'd be a threat to the establishment".
Giovanni Lavafiume

How much does a visa cost to go and see the final?
DP

Champions League 2009/10

Inter/Barca
AC Milan/Real Madrid
Bayern/Juve

Good draw for us...so far
DP

Fiorentina get Liverpool and Lyon  
ForzaFiori

Liverpool/ Lyon/ Fiorentina

Damn!!
DP

Full Draw:

Group A
Bayern Munich
Juventus
Bordeaux
Maccabi Haifa

Group B
Man Utd
CSKA Moscow
Besiktas
Wolfsburg

Group C
Milan
Real Madrid
Marseille
FC Zurich

Group D
Chelsea
Porto
Atletico Madrid
APOEL Nicosia

Group E
Liverpool
Lyon
Fiorentina
Debrecen

Group F
Barcelona
Inter
Dinamo Kiev
Rubin Kazan

Group G
Sevilla
Rangers
Stuttgart
Unirea Urziceni

Group H
Arsenal
AZ Alkmaar
Olympiakos
Standard Liege
Guest

ForzaFiori wrote:
Liverpool/ Lyon/ Fiorentina

Damn!!


tough, not impossible
Myles

delpiero wrote:

Group A
Bayern Munich
Juventus
Bordeaux
Maccabi Haifa


Can't complain.
Liam

As I said on Salas, not too bad.
Guest

Some embarrassing evenings ahead then
zeds

Hmmm, not too many interesting match ups. I go for:

Group A
Bayern Munich
Juventus

Group B
Man Utd
Wolfsburg

Group C
Milan
Real Madrid

Group D
Chelsea
Atletico Madrid

Group E
Liverpool
Fiorentina

Group F
Barcelona
Inter

Group G
Sevilla
Stuttgart

Group H
Arsenal
Olympiakos
Guest

Ha Ibra has to visit Milan earlier than he thought!! Haha this is going to be hilarious! What you mean not too many interesting matches zeds! What about Kaka vs Milan hahaha
Guest

Mev wrote:
Some embarrassing evenings ahead then

Also a quick acid test to the strength of calcio. Italian teams have  outplayed Spanish teams in recent seasons. We shall see.
ForzaFiori

pengedragon wrote:
ForzaFiori wrote:
Liverpool/ Lyon/ Fiorentina

Damn!!


tough, not impossible


Liverpool have been a bit ropey in the prem but generally they're a better team in Europe. I thought Lyon would be weaker this season, not sure wether their hammering of Anderlecht was down to them being so good or Anderlecht being so bad.

Don't know about Debrecen, I don't want to be  too arrogant but surely we can get 6 points off them.
Mezz

All I wanted from the Champions League draw was for Man United not to get drawn in the same group as Fiorentina, and for both teams to be on opposite sides of the draw so I could watch each of their games in full.

I got that.

I honestly believe that Fiorentina can qualify from their group, behind Liverpool but ahead of Lyon with Debrecen propping everyone else up.
zeds

azzurro89 wrote:
Ha Ibra has to visit Milan earlier than he thought!! Haha this is going to be hilarious! What you mean not too many interesting matches zeds! What about Kaka vs Milan hahaha


I meant that most of the groups are pretty easy to call. Inter v Barca (Milito bothers, Ibra/Eto'o etc) should be fun as will Kaka's return to the San Siro, and there may be a couple suprises, but overall, the group stage of the CL is pretty blah.
Guest

Forzaaaa Inter.

;(
Guest

I'm waitting for Milan vs. Madrid. Real Madrid is my favorite. But I know it will be a hard match for them.
Guest

Madrid are the epitome of everything wrong with the world today.

Versus Milan will probably be a none contest with how woeful Milan are at the moment, hopefully Madrid will draw Juve and get a right royal (see what I did there?!) seeing to as usual.  
Guest

Micky wrote:
Madrid are the epitome of everything wrong with the world today.

Madrid are Moggi?  
Guest

Bobo32 wrote:
Micky wrote:
Madrid are the epitome of everything wrong with the world today.

Madrid are Moggi?  


Ha, I've just read back what I'd written and should probably have put 'they are the epitome of everything wrong with the footballing world today'.

They follow closely the US administration and bus lanes with what is wrong in the world as a whole. Moggi is down on the list with my old next door neighbour Alan Duncan. A neighbour of his Rutland home that is, not his London homes.

I'll stop now. Where's the BTTMMU thread.........
Guest

Champions League Draw

Anyone know when the 16 round draw will be made?  

What price a Mourinho  reunion against Chelsea (or Ancelotti with Milan)?  I'd say it will happen, these things always do.

Enjoy watching the Champions League on the telly Liverpool.  
VB

Friday 18th December at 11am.
kaka22

Liverpool can still watch there team in the Champions League on the telly........ on the History channel
Sir George

Mexico 86:

The probability of Chelsea playing Inter in the next round is 1 in 7 or 6-1.  So a bookie would give you ia price n the vicinity of 7-1.  

The probabiliy of Chelsea playing Milan is also 1 in 7.  

The probability of Chelsea playing Milan or Inter is 2 in 7.  Or 2.5 to 1.

I think your perception that "these things always happen" is born of the fact that players and managers move around quite frequently, so whenever clubs of a similar level meet, there is a strong likelihood that some players or managers will previously have played for/managed their opponents.  

So it might be more relevant to ask in wonderment what the chances are of Chlesea playing a team with whom there are few links and little past history.  Olympiakos maybe?   If I were in charge of the balls, I'd arrange for a reunion with Ballack's former club and hope that Ribery is fit and firing by then.
flotron

Sir George wrote:
Mexico 86:

The probability of Chelsea playing Inter in the next round is 1 in 7 or 6-1.  So a bookie would give you ia price n the vicinity of 7-1.  



Unfortunately it is not quite that easy Sir George. You must remember that clubs from the same association cannot play each other in the 2nd round.

Since Inter finished second and Fiorentina finished first in their groups' this means they cannot play each other.

Plus remember the fact that teams from the same group cannot play each other either means that Inter can actually only possibly play 5 other teams.

Then again Chelsea might play one of 6 teams because no english clubs came 2nd in their group. So I think it depends on what order the clubs are drawn as to the odds. Does the group winner get picked first or the runnerup?

Plus the bookies would not give you longer odds than the chance of the event occuring.


Other than that you make a valid point, they are simply odds and nothing more.
Sir George

Yes, quite right flotron, the bookies would give lower odds than the probability, not higher odds.  Temporary loss of marbles on my part.

Quite right about the CL rules too, althought your arithmetic is a bit to cock in saying Inter can only play 5 other teams.   Unless I've missed some other blindingly obvious point.  They can actually play any one of 6 teams.   Your bit about which team gets picked first doesn't matter in terms of the probabilities either.  So the chances of an Inter v Chelsea tie are 1 in 6.

Thus the probability of Chlsea playing Milan or Inter is actually 2 in 6. Or 2 to 1.  So a generous bookie would give you 15/8.
Guest

Inter can play Chelsea, Man Utd, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Sevilla or Bordeaux. 6/1 chance of any one.

OR New Zealand.
VB

My ideal draw  

VB

Pity about Fiorentina. Delighted with the Milanese draws ;)

Stuttgart - Barca
Olympiakos - Bordeaux
Inter - Chelsea
Bayern Munich - Fiorentina
CSKA Moscow - Seville
Milan - Man Utd
Lyon - Real Madrid
FC Porto - Arsenal

The Spanish will be delighted!
Guest

oh yes..milan and united..can't wait,most English football supporters think AC are a team of has beens...i'll be praying they dump the scum out of the CL!
Guest

Bayern, Chelsea and Man U, couldn't be much worse.

Saying that, despite Bayern winning in Turin they are far from unbeatable. Not sure which way round it is but if the Viola are at home first then I'd think they can get a win and and hold out in Germany. Though they won their group so are probably away first...

Mourinho will obviously be well up for Chelsea but I can't see Inter doing anything... As for Milan, I'm (very) cautiously hopeful. It could be games like this where the loss of Kaka really hits home.
Guest

thats the hardest draw viola could have got, not much reward for winning the group. still doable though
flotron

Re: Champions League Draw

Mexico86 wrote:
Anyone know when the 16 round draw will be made?  

What price a Mourinho  reunion against Chelsea (or Ancelotti with Milan)?  I'd say it will happen, these things always do.

Enjoy watching the Champions League on the telly Liverpool.  


How much did you win then?
zeds

van Basten wrote:
Pity about Fiorentina. Delighted with the Milanese draws ;)

Stuttgart - Barca
Olympiakos - Bordeaux
Inter - Chelsea
Bayern Munich - Fiorentina
CSKA Moscow - Seville
Milan - Man Utd
Lyon - Real Madrid
FC Porto - Arsenal

The Spanish will be delighted!


I certainly wouldn't rule out Fiorentina doing over Bayern. I'm glad there are some exciting ties, should be a lot of fun.
Pretty much a draw of comebacks.
Toni back to Fiorentina
Mournhino back to Chelsea
Hleb back to Barca
Benzema back to Lyon
Beckham back to Manu

Are there any more backs that I've missed?
Duncan!

C'mon, this draw was obviously "helped"
Guest

Yes obviously... because how else would this have happened... LUCK?!!
Guest

tough draws for italian teams

i can only see fiorientina scraping through TBH
VB

pengedragon wrote:
thats the hardest draw viola could have got, not much reward for winning the group. still doable though


So much has changed since the draw was made last Decemeber
.
Bayern's and Fiorentina's last 11 games:



                      W    D    L     F     L  

Bayern            11     0    0    40    11  

Fiorentina         4     1     6    17    19


I have a feeling the game between Fiorentina and Bayern carries so much weight that it could almost be seen as a play-off for their respected league's 4th place Champions League qualification spots.
DP

Wow !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fqaTK_Fak8
zeds

delpiero wrote:
Wow !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fqaTK_Fak8


This video has been removed due to terms of use violation. What was it, Del Piero?
DP

A wundergoal by Mark Gonzalez !!!
Guest

Great goal. Equaliser in the CSKA v Sevilla game.

Forget the blokes name.
zeds

Ah yeah, was lucky to see that goal as soon as I turned the telly on tonight. Brilliant strike. I think that's the same Mark Gonzalez who was at Liverpool, and scored a Maradona-esque goal for Betis last season.
Guest

van Basten wrote:



I have a feeling the game between Fiorentina and Bayern carries so much weight that it could almost be seen as a play-off for their respected league's 4th place Champions League qualification spots.


The way things are going, the Italian clubs are going to have to go all the way in one of the European competitions. If the Germans keep progressing (like they are likely to in the Europa League), they’ll keep notching up points and that will eventually over take Italy's 2 1/2 point advantage. It looks like the chasing pack for fourth place this season is chasing a shadow - the shadow of third place.
Guest

will there be a champions league 2nd leg prediction thread for this week's predictions?
Mezz

Here's a crazy thought - why don't you start the thread yourself?
Guest

simply because i didn't see myself as one who was in a position to do so. i'll think otherwise next time.
Mezz

Absolutely anyone can start a game thread, as they do with the MPC and betting games.

All of the games have specific markers, except for the betting game, so if a thread isn't up when you think it should be then by all means kick it off.
Guest

got it.  
zeds

Well empowered, Mezz.
VB

Mev wrote:
van Basten wrote:



I have a feeling the game between Fiorentina and Bayern carries so much weight that it could almost be seen as a play-off for their respected league's 4th place Champions League qualification spots.


The way things are going, the Italian clubs are going to have to go all the way in one of the European competitions. If the Germans keep progressing (like they are likely to in the Europa League), they’ll keep notching up points and that will eventually over take Italy's 2 1/2 point advantage. It looks like the chasing pack for fourth place this season is chasing a shadow - the shadow of third place.


Not even going to watch tonight’s highlights! When you consider that come the end of the season Italy's total for 04/05 season won't be included in the overall points total, its hard to see the Germans failing to over take Italy and thus claim Serie A’s 4th Champions League qualification spot.

DP

Real Madrid 1 - 1 Lyon        

That's cheered me up to no end
VB

Forget the f**king Germans - the French will be overtaking the Italians soon enough...
VB

'Should Inter fail to protect their first leg lead against Chelsea, the sight of one of the three German teams left in the Europa League reaching that competition's final in Hamburg in May would be enough to ensure Italy's demotion to Europe's second tier.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/...-hopes-of-a-nation-in-Europe.html

So, a big week ahead then...
VB

Bayern Munich v Man Utd    Vs     Lyon v Bordeux    

Inter Milan  v CSKA             Vs     Arsenal v Barca



Mixed emotions about the Bayern/United game: on the one hand I don't want to see United progress, on the other hand I don't want a German side to progress either (for reasons, see above).

It would be great to see Gourcuff and co reach the semis (Just look at what you sold, Silvio).

Can't wait for the Arsenal/Barca tie - two great attacking sides... Should be special.


Final – Man Utd Vs Barcelona  

Mourinho, prove me wrong...
Guest

van Basten wrote:
Pity about Fiorentina. Delighted with the Milanese draws ;)

Stuttgart - Barca
Olympiakos - Bordeaux
Inter - Chelsea
Bayern Munich - Fiorentina
CSKA Moscow - Seville
Milan - Man Utd
Lyon - Real Madrid
FC Porto - Arsenal

The Spanish will be delighted!


Evidently not - which is why United, who have the easier side of the draw (on paper, at least), will not be taking the Germans or French sides lightly.
Myles

La Champions League

I see Jose, and the players got fined their pocket money and suspended for a game which they wanted to be suspended for anyway. That'll teach 'em!  


UEFA suspend Mou for Cardgate
Liam

They probably thought they were guilty, but didn't necessarily have hard evidence of it, so gave out a punishment that isn't really much of a punishment.
Guest

its his players, so its his choice what he wants to do with them. Let managers manage their teams
Myles

I get it but this isn't a ruthless business we're talking about here, it's the ethos of fair play in sport....then again football can be a business above sport unfortunately.

I'm sure Jose is thinking that 40k is a lot less than the bonus he'll get for getting his team through to the quarters rather than fail yet have that extra change in his pocket for xmas presents.
Guest

who cares about fair play? Its all about what is best for your team
Guest

Knob.
Guest

thats reallity mate
Guest

Co-efficients are savage.

Italy are losing a CL place while current champions of Europe. Maybe they'll take their footballing heritage seriously now and sell it all off piecemeal to faceless eastern investors. Heh.

http://www.football-italia.net/feb25k.html
Mezz

The link in the previous post was clean, so:

http://www.football-italia.net/feb25k.html

Welcome to the forum, Medball.
Guest

Thank you Mezz!
DP

Welcome medball !

important things first, where do your allegiances lie ?
Guest

I support Port Vale but have soft spots for Fiorentina (from Batistuta & Rui Costa days) and Milan (Van Basten, Boban, Maldini & Shevchenko). I probably follow players in Italy as much as teams.
Mezz

medball wrote:
but have soft spots for Fiorentina (from Batistuta & Rui Costa days)


I knew this fella was sound, I just KNEW it!
Guest

Haha, cheers.

Still can't believe Italy are getting dropped to three places though. When was the last German club successful in Europe? Checking wiki it looks like not since 1996. Actually winning the tournament should carry significantly more weight. Who ever remembers the losing semi-finalists after all?
Liam

medball wrote:
Haha, cheers.

Still can't believe Italy are getting dropped to three places though. When was the last German club successful in Europe? Checking wiki it looks like not since 1996. Actually winning the tournament should carry significantly more weight. Who ever remembers the losing semi-finalists after all?

Performances in the Europa League are more important as there's more games to get co-efficient points in, and they're worth the same points as a CL game.

Italian sides have long treated this tournament as a reserve competition, even though they've still had sides performing well in the Champions League.

Obviously there's the Calciopoli factor as well.  The FIGC choosing to weaken their strongest side 5 years ago for no reason will have had an effect.
Guest

Liam wrote:
medball wrote:
Haha, cheers.

Still can't believe Italy are getting dropped to three places though. When was the last German club successful in Europe? Checking wiki it looks like not since 1996. Actually winning the tournament should carry significantly more weight. Who ever remembers the losing semi-finalists after all?

Performances in the Europa League are more important as there's more games to get co-efficient points in, and they're worth the same points as a CL game.

Italian sides have long treated this tournament as a reserve competition, even though they've still had sides performing well in the Champions League.

Obviously there's the Calciopoli factor as well.  The FIGC choosing to weaken their strongest side 5 years ago for no reason will have had an effect.


Sure, all this aside though, they've still won them more frequently than some leagues that keep 4. Winning the things regularly should carry more weight than coming close frequently.
Myles

What do they mean by Champions Route and League Route?

http://www.football-italia.net/aug5g.html
Liam

Champions = Teams that won their domestic league.

League = Teams that would be playing in the Europa League if it wasn't for money.

Platini separated out the draw in this way to get more countries represented, because what often happened was the Polish champions would be knocked out by 4th place in Italy or Spain.  This way it's easier for the champions to qualify, and harder for those finishing 2nd/3rd/4th in their domestic league.
Guest

Champions Route is teams that won their respective leagues and League Route is teams like Arsenal and Udinese etc that finished in the play-off position in their league.
Guest

Yeah what liam said, that comment wasn't there when I hit the reply button, just took me an age to write it  
Myles

Thanks lads, it crossed my mind that that's what they might have meant but i didn't really have a clue to be honest.
VB

It's a pity Udinese have offloaded two of their best players without recruiting. It looks like they'll miss out on the group stages yet again.
nino

Well Udinese are famed for their scouting and finding brilliant players from seemingly no where. So I wouldn't write them off straight away. However a draw against Arsenal is always going to be hard whether they'd have reinforced with big names or not.
Mezz

As far as I know, Udinese have only brought in three players: Danilo from Palmeiras, Sissoko from Troyes (both centre backs) and Doubai from Young Boys who's a central midfielder.

After losing Zapatá, Inler and Sanchez though, that's nowhere near enough if they're serious about getting in to the group stages.

Fingers crossed that they've got a few unearthed gems in the youth team that are about to announce themselves on the European stage...
Liam

I'm guessing Udinese's squad is being bolstered by returning loanees, as they have an awful lot of them dotted around the world.  I think I read they were replacing Sanchez with Barreto who they co-owned with Bari for example.

They're also probably going down the Sampdoria route of seeing if they get into the group stages first.  Regardless though they should have made more than enough to cover any losses from the sales they've made, even without CL money.

I wish them well, but Arsenal were likely to win before Sanchez, Inler and Zapata went.
VB

Come on, Udinese, prove me wrong...  

Guest

well, its looking like nasri wont be playing due to his ongoing transfer with man city. arsenal will have a tough time with creativity. walcott hasnt been too impressive the past match or two. i really hope udinese pull it off....
VB

Interesting article comparing Arsenal's scouting system to Udinese's ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/...t-in-the-shade.html#disqus_thread
Lupo Pazzesco

Forza Udinese.      

Kick a Wenger when he is down!
Liam



I want tears in the ITV studio!
Mezz

Tangerine Romanista

Forza Udinese!

BTW, there's no way this game is finishing 0-0!

Very open start.
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