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Pundit

EU making betting more expensive!

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum but am pretty alarmed at the campaign the EU courts have started against the gambling industry. A recent ruling from September (Bwin v State of Portgual) continued to allow governments like Portugal's, Germany's and Greece from denying their citizens access to online gambling operators. Instead, these poor souls are forced to use the state-run monopolies in those countries.

Consumers in those countries invarialy pay more to bet. But it gets worse - because there is less competition between gambling suppliers across the continent as a result of this verdict, everyone who bets on European football (or other sports) pays more.

It's out of line, letting governments protect profits rather than letting the market set prices, as it should be. There's a petition at www.right2bet.net to change the situation.

I don't want to pay more to bet than I should have to!
Bobo32

I think betting is a stupid waste of time and money. However, it is clearly not right that governments hold a monopoly on betting.

What were the reasons given by the court?

In the interest of morals?
Bobo32

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/portugal-internet.cu

Here is the reason given. I'd love to read a full case report. Before then it is hard for me to tell whether it's justified or not.

Oh, http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi...;resmax=100&Submit=Rechercher

Here is the case report.

It is interesting that the National Lottery is similarly state-influenced in this country. Like the National Lottery in England, the money raised in Portugal goes to "associations of voluntary fire crews, private social solidarity institutions, establishments for the safety and rehabilitation of handicapped persons, and the cultural development fund."
So betting serves some public good.


It's clear that under national law the fines handed out to the Portuguese government and Bwin were fair. The question is whether relevant EC law has been respected.
Specifically, "Do the exclusive rights granted to Santa Casa (Portuguese govt), when relied on ...against a provider of services established in another Member State in which it lawfully provides similar services [constitute] an impediment to the free provision of services, in breach of the principles of freedom to provide services, freedom of establishment and the free movement of payments enshrined in Articles 49, 43 and 56 of the EC Treaty"
Also, does the Portuguese government have control over what a foreign company within the EU allows to be seen in Portugal over the internet ?

So what did the court rule?

Well the court agreed with the Bwin and the Portuguese league that there WAS a restriction on the freedom to provide services. Indeed Santa Casa conceded this point.
The law : "Article 49 EC requires the abolition of all restrictions on the freedom to provide services... when they are liable to prohibit, impede or render less advantageous the activities of a service provider established in another Member State where it lawfully provides similar services. Moreover, the freedom to provide services is for the benefit of both providers and recipients of services."
It's clear that the Portuguese government is damaging Bwin and the Portuguese league's financial interests.
The consumer ("recipient of services") is also worse off.

A derogation is allowed "in reasons of Public Interest". According to statute this means "public policy, public security or public health".
Case law has extended this to cases of "consumer protection and the prevention of both fraud and incitement to squander money on gambling, as well as the general need to preserve public order"


Here is the point.

Quote:
In that context, as most of the Member States which submitted observations to the Court have noted, the legislation on games of chance is one of the areas in which there are significant moral, religious and cultural differences between the Member States. In the absence of Community harmonisation in the field, it is for each Member State to determine in those areas, in accordance with its own scale of values, what is required in order to ensure that the interests in question are protected


There are different cultural values at play here. Consider how cannabis, euthanasia and abortion are also subject to different cultural standpoints and thus legal measures.

Quote:
The Portuguese Government and Santa Casa submit that the main objective pursued by the national legislation is the fight against crime, more specifically the protection of consumers of games of chance against fraud on the part of operators.

In that connection, it should be noted that the fight against crime may constitute an overriding reason in the public interest that is capable of justifying restrictions in respect of operators authorised to offer services in the games-of-chance sector. Games of chance involve a high risk of crime or fraud, given the scale of the earnings and the potential winnings on offer to gamblers.


Read from point 55 on the above link if you want more reasoning.


It's funny how those who object to the EU/EC law often try to claim that the it doesnt respect cultural differences and that it assumes Italians are the same as Germans and Romanians are the same as the British.
This case highlights the fact that the EU does respect cultural differences.
Pundit

Good research there Bobo, nice of you to take such an interest when you personally don't like betting!

In terms of this ruling supporting the EU's case when it comes to preserving cultural differences, the cynic in me is tempted to note that this only seems to be the case when politicians have somehting to gain from doing so. Gambling is clearly an area where there are areas of morality at stake, but it seems that governments such as Portugal's are feathering their own nest with the gambling industry. They aren't banning international competition because they have an ethical problem with gambling, but because they want to keep all the revenue from it within Portugal.

I don't see how the EU can therefore argue  this is a cultural or moral issue when it seems the only factor is profit! Especially when the whole point of the EU is free trade and open markets.

The part of the ruling that bothers me the most is where the court says:

"betting carries a high risk of fraud and that online betting, given the lack of direct contact, carries an even higher risk of criminal activity.

"Companies that sponsor sports competitions, along with some of the participants, "may be in a position to influence the outcome" of events "and thus increase its profits." "

Surely this is implying sports are corrupt, and therefore anyone who watches them is being duped. What an outrageous conclusion for a group of judges to draw!

Anyway, for anyone who does like betting and is affected by this, there's a petition called "right2bet" which is campaigning against the courts. It's well worth a google, and only takes 30 seconds in total.

Cheers.
Dave

Pundit,

As your link was genuine and appears to be legit - and to save time for other foro members who might be interested:

www.right2bet.net


(Sorry that you seem to be the first genuine new member  - as opposed to spammer - to fall victim of what's become a very necessary anti-spamming measure)

For the benefit of anyone confused by the matter (See Sir George's post below), posting this link in a bid to make life slightly easier for members interested in Pundit's point does not constitute an official endorsement of, or support for the petition or the sentiments behind it by this forum, or its administrators; nor of Pundit's point of view.

Nor does it represent support for bookies or any other legally-constituted business involved in parting those fond of a bet from their cash.

Any similarity between real events, or with persons living or dead is entirely coincidental/in the mind of the reader.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this edit, although a few electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.  
Bobo32

Pundit wrote:
Good research there Bobo, nice of you to take such an interest when you personally don't like betting!

In terms of this ruling supporting the EU's case when it comes to preserving cultural differences, the cynic in me is tempted to note that this only seems to be the case when politicians have somehting to gain from doing so. Gambling is clearly an area where there are areas of morality at stake, but it seems that governments such as Portugal's are feathering their own nest with the gambling industry. They aren't banning international competition because they have an ethical problem with gambling, but because they want to keep all the revenue from it within Portugal.

I don't see how the EU can therefore argue  this is a cultural or moral issue when it seems the only factor is profit! Especially when the whole point of the EU is free trade and open markets.

The part of the ruling that bothers me the most is where the court says:

"betting carries a high risk of fraud and that online betting, given the lack of direct contact, carries an even higher risk of criminal activity.

"Companies that sponsor sports competitions, along with some of the participants, "may be in a position to influence the outcome" of events "and thus increase its profits." "

Surely this is implying sports are corrupt, and therefore anyone who watches them is being duped. What an outrageous conclusion for a group of judges to draw!

Anyway, for anyone who does like betting and is affected by this, there's a petition called "right2bet" which is campaigning against the courts. It's well worth a google, and only takes 30 seconds in total.

Cheers.
Im happy that there is another poster prepared to discuss things with consideration. I hope you make your stay here permanent.

I dont think you can be cynical about the Portuguese government's motives. The case report says money from betting goes to "associations of voluntary fire crews, private social solidarity institutions, establishments for the safety and rehabilitation of handicapped persons, and the cultural development fund."
In other words they use the money for good causes.

When I read it, my understanding was that in games of luck (particularly online) the results could be rigged by the gaming company. It's not clear that gambling on football matches is the same unless the betting companies can influence the result.
Maybe bribery is a bigger risk/problem in Portugal?

This doesnt apply in the UK so why are you so concerned anyway?
zeds

Bobo and Pundit sitting in a tree...etc etc
Sir George

What the Dickens has signing a petition promoting the interests of bookmakers got to do with the beautiful game?  Or even Italian football?   Admittedly I have very little to say about Italian football other than noting the terminal decline of Juventus, but I do draw the line at cheeleading for industries that actually harm sport.

What next Dave?  Are you going to post a link to a petition demanding reduced prices for cigarettes, or free porn for all?
Bobo32

Sir George wrote:
free porn for all?
this
Dave

Sir George wrote:


What next Dave?  Are you going to post a link to a petition demanding reduced prices for cigarettes, or free porn for all?


No - since these (unlike the petition in the post) would contravene site rules.

I thought it was fairly clear from my posting that as the link in Pundit's post appeared genuine (i.e. doesn't contravene site rules and wasn't an obvious spamming effort), it seemed rather unfortunate that members wishing to see what he/she was on about had to go into google and search for the damned thing.

I have, however, added a small clarification to my last to make this clear....
mrsegov

Hi everyone,

First of all it is not so much the EU that is making betting more expensive but rather national governments that keep on supporting state monopolies instead of opening the market to make sure that the EU is a truly open single market as it is supposed to be.

Having said that, it is true that some of the ECJ rulings as the one referred to above is surprising as it is not pushing in favour of an European single market that is supposed to be beneficial for companies and consumers alike.

It is also not just a question of betting in itself but rather any consumer area within the EU. The right2bet initiative is a consumers initiative that is pushing for everyone's right to bet with whichever company they want to, but the principle can be applied to any other consumer area within the EU.
Bobo32

Jeeeeesus... If the EU does too much it isnt allowing national govt to be sovereign, and if it does too little it's not enforcing the EU ideology hard enough. goshhh
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